4. THEORETICAL FRAMEWORK – DEFINITIONS OF KEY TERMS
4.1.1 Embodied Cognition
4.1.2 Embodiment Theory in Artificial Intelligence
4.1.3 Embodiment Theory in Physical Theatre
4.3 Technology, Spinning and Embodiment
4.3.1 Technology and Technological Systems
4.3.2 Technology and Embodiment
4.3.3 The Technology of Spinning and Embodiment
4.5 Interdisciplinary Work / Multidisciplinary / Intermediality
Embodiment or incarnation is defined as the giving of human form to a spirit – to make manifest or comprehensible an idea or concept, through a physical presentation. In the biblical definition, incarnation is the manifestation of the holy spirit in human form. Similarly, in performance, the body is the canvas or the medium for expressing and bringing to life a concept, emotion, story or idea, before an audience.
As musicians, we do the work of embodiment by bringing written or otherwise documented suggestions of sound into physicality. We take an idea about a sound or musical gesture or combination thereof transmitted and preserved through written symbols, verbal instructions or spontaneous inspiration, take this into our bodies and express it through sound and action, using either voice or an instrument to bring the idea into the air and thus into the listener's body via the ear.
In my work as a singer, I use emotional content and physical action in parallel with the sung music and text, in order to fully incarnate the content or the “essence” of the piece I am performing. I am interested in the moment at which one becomes a medium (medium is the message – this concept will be elaborated later), an interface, a filter for a piece, and in the process of refinement by which one may continuously allow shades of one's one experience to colour an interpretation, while always keeping the focus on making appropriate space for the material to come through. This is effectively the moment at which the body becomes “technology”; a means to achieve a result; a complex system of reception, transformation, and production. Applied to vocal music, these principles encourage a subtle shift in intention and focus; that the training of the vocal instrument be in place already and that the focus of performance be the communication of the text, emotional content and intention of the piece rather than on vocal technique in itself. I consider this approach of the body as a filter or a medium not to be in opposition to technique, but rather a legitimate technique in itself.
At the beginning of my studies in the NAIP program, I was specifically interested in the idea of embodiment of landscape through vocal music. The works I have created throughout the period of study wound up dealing with this question, albeit in a less direct way. Where FutureMOVES interacts with landscape brings up questions about the nature of a landscape and what can constitute a “landscape”; the Oxford English dictionary includes in its definition of landscape “all the visible features of an area of land” and “the distinctive features of a sphere of activity”; if a landscape is a place that we spend time interacting with our surroundings and each other, it can be argued that the internet has become as much a landscape as any of our physical surroundings.
4.1.1 Embodied Cognition
The field of embodied cognition draws on early philosophical ideas of bodily experience as integral to reasoning, stemming from the work of philosophers Maurice Merleau-Ponty and John Dewey. They oppose the Cartesian theory known as mind-body dualism, which sees mind and body as wholly separate. The contemporary study of embodiment in cognitive science posits that “our ideas are shaped by our bodily experiences – not in any simpleminded one-to-one way but indirectly, through the grounding of our entire conceptual system in everyday life” (Lakoff and Nunez xiv).
Where Descartes insists that the mind is a nonphysical and non-spatial substance and therefore logic and reasoning separate from bodily experience (Robinson, web resource), embodied cognition embraces a theory which suggests that “the mind is not merely embodied, but embodied in such a way that our conceptual systems draw largely upon the commonalities of our bodies and of the environments we live in” (Johnson and Lakoff 16).
“Because our conceptual systems grow out of our bodies, meaning is grounded in and through our bodies... There is no such thing as a computational person, whose mind is like computer software, able to work on any suitable computer or neural hardware, whose mind somehow derives meaning from taking meaningless symbols as input, manipulating them by rule, and giving meaningless symbols as output. Real people have embodied minds whose conceptual systems arise from, are shaped by, and are given meaning through living human bodies. The neural structures of our brains produce conceptual systems and linguistic structures that cannot be adequately accounted for by formal systems that only manipulate symbols” (Johnson and Lakoff 17).
4.1.2 Embodiment Theory in Artificial Intelligence
In AI, the two general schools of machine intelligence are represented by the terms Symbolic and Subsymbolic. Symbolic knowledge relies on pre-programmed representational internal systems, where subsymbolic (or “connectionist”) knowledge synthesizes a human neural network, allowing for environmental input and deep learning (Lieberman; Bhatia, web resources). In this context, the concept of embodiment deals with “embodied systems in the real physical and social world”, which “...are highly complex and their investigation requires the cooperation of many different areas” (Pfeifer and Iida 1). Pfeifer and Iida elaborate on the two schools of AI: “one meaning stands for GOFAI (Good Old-Fashioned Artificial Intelligence), the traditional algorithmic approach. The other one designates the embodied approach, a paradigm that employs the synthetic methodology which has three goals: (1) understanding biological systems, (2) abstracting general principles of intelligent behavior, and (3) the application of this knowledge to build artificial systems such as robots or intelligent devices in general. As a result, the modern, embodied approach started to move out of computer science laboratories more into robotics and engineering or biology labs” (Pfeifer and Iida 5).
Thus, the concept of embodiment in terms of AI encompasses not only a physical body moving in a specific environment, but an integrated approach towards reaching a sort of composite intelligence that draws on multiple types and forms of knowledge and experience. This raises questions about a developing symbiosis between human and machine; whether intelligent machines are extensions of the human body in some spheres, and whether this relationship is reciprocated in the human body behaving as an extension of the machine in the physical world - feeding information back into it through our daily and most basic interactions with communications technology.
4.1.3 Embodiment Theory In Physical Theatre
Embodiment in physical theatre practices and actor training methods refers to the eradication of a perceived separation between mind and body, allowing for a “pure” communication between dramatic impulses and bodily expression on stage. Drawing on the philosophy of Maurice Merleau-Ponty's Phenomenology of Perception, which argues against previous philosophical discussions separating mind and body and posits the self as synthesis of landscape, experience and bodily sensation (Merleau-Ponty 61) various theatre practitioners developed specific systems to approach the process of embodiment and to train the body and mind to work together towards this goal.
Polish director and pedagogue Jerzy Grotowski's “Poor Theatre” method combined rigorous physical training with exercises designed to help performers overcome psychological barriers and obstacles to performance. He believed that “text per se is not theatre, that it becomes theatre only through the actors' use of it, that is to say, thanks to intonations, to the association of sounds, to the musicality of language”; linking embodiment of a text to vocal work, which was also a major facet of his practice (Grotowski 21). Konstantin Stanislavski was another pioneer of Western acting training; his “system” of training and role preparation went through several transformations which later became known as “method acting”. In his original “system”, Stanislavski sought to cultivate what he called an “art of experiencing”, as opposed to an “art of representation” (Stanislavski 19).
Questions that may have thus far been raised about the difference between imitation (mimesis) and embodiment can be addressed through an understanding of this divide; in terms of the present research, an embodied approach is an intentionally integrated approach, like in Stanislavski's “art of experiencing”, distinct from imitation. Imitation (or “art of representation”) can be a starting point for embodiment, and there will be a certain amount of embodiment that occurs naturally in any sort of physical representation by virtue of having a body and lived experience. Nevertheless, to work deliberately on a practice of embodiment means to go essentially beyond imitation, to willfully train the body and mind to be able to consciously access and integrate tools from lived experience into performance.
These same principles have been further applied to voice training for theatre by notable voice coaches and theorists Patsy Rodenburg and Cicely Berry:
In her seminal book on working with the voice, The Right To Speak, Rodenburg challenges notions of standard beauty in vocal delivery, emphasizing instead the importance of working with the performer's whole instrument, including identity and psyche, to help access the “authentic” voice. Her approach seeks “not a 'beautiful' voice but a voice rid of doubt and insecurity, a voice perfectly in pitch with the honesty of any text or feeling, a voice that in essence is sincere.” According to her, “sincerity gives any voice compelling beauty.” (Rodenburg 16)
Rodenburg's approach to the voice honours and works with the sometimes-neglected truth that the human voice is contained within a body, and that body has life experience, emotions and memories, in addition to very specific and unique physicality, all of which contribute to shaping the instrument. Rather than seeing this as an obstacle to overcome, her method encourages rooted, connected, fully embodied use of the voice that recognizes the source from which it comes. In her approach, damaging habits must be overcome in order to allow the performer access to their “authentic” voice.
Cicely Berry was a mentor to Rodenburg and developed a method mixing rigorous technical training with razor sharp awareness exercises to allow for a natural and free voice. Her work also deals with undoing damaging habits and preparing the body to receive and transmit dramatic impulses, effectively a preparation for embodiment. “It is only if, as an actor, you are in a state of total readiness that you are free to be part of the action, which is new every moment. In other words, you do not have time to come out of the situation to reflect and think 'How can I do this”'; you do it at the moment the action arises, because the voice is so free.” (Berry 11)
Embodiment in terms of integrated performance practice can thus be defined as a state in which the material of performance is being fully expressed by the performer. In most cases, one type of embodiment is not practiced alone; the different shades of embodiment blur together with one another, though the performer may be deliberately working through only one approach.
In terms of a connection with textile work which will be reflected as a framework for comparison throughout the text, we can see the application of the principle of embodiment in several ways. First, in order to create a garment, over numerous steps the fibres pass many times through an artisan (or multiple artisans') hands; the raw material of the sheep's wool, or other fibre, is chosen, separated from the source, cleaned, brushed, then literally stretched, twisted, shaped and formed into long string by the artisan's hands, filtered through their personal touch and combination of tension, release and guidance of the fiber in a marriage between material and approach. Colour may be added, and the string can be plied upon itself or mixed with other strings made from similar or different fibre, according to the desires of the artisan or prescribed method for making a particular kind of fibre. Some possible approaches: to strive for uniformity; to purposely integrate seemingly chaotic mixes of materials and textures; to alter the movements of the hands deliberately and follow the whims of the different fibres; or, to aim to sculpt different materials into threads that fit together in unique ways.
Once the fibre has been spun into a yarn, the artisan has another series of choices to make regarding the next form of technology (both the specific tool and the needlecraft practice) that will be used, as well as the form that the yarn will take in the final garment or object. Depending upon how the yarn is worked, looped through and folded back upon itself, or combined with other yarns, the final garment can take an endless number of forms:
The artisan can follow an established pattern (parallel with reading a work of music in the intended style, respecting all conventions and indications), can elaborate on or modify an existing pattern by adding, subtracting, embellishing parts. In music, a parallel can be drawn to “arranging” (doing “cover songs” in pop practices), starting from an existing piece and altering the interpretation style, instrumentation, tempo, timbre, context, or other parameters in relation to its performance. Alternatively, musicians can create patchwork-like “mashups” or “pastiches” of other, larger pieces; either by combining fragments from several complete works or by creating a new take on a traditional original item, drawing inspiration and thematically borrowing from other pieces or styles in the process. A third approach is pure creation or improvisation, which deals primarily with the pure materials and is less concerned with form or formal structure; experimentation and direct contact with the materials are favoured here – the final form is of less concern throughout the process, than the process of discovery of matching materials and approaches together to gather information about what happens when they interact in combination in various settings.
4.3 Technology, Spinning and Embodiment
In order to discuss the technologies employed in the case-studied works I will begin with a basic definition of technology, moving to the relationships between technology, embodiment and spinning/textile arts practices.
4.3.1 Technology and Technological Systems
Dr. Ursula Franklin describes “technology as practice”, highlighting that in her definition, “technology is not the sum of the artifacts, of the wheels and gears, of the rails and electronic transmitters. Technology is a system. It entails far more than its individual material components. Technology involves organization, procedures, symbols, new words, equations, and, most of all, a mindset” (Franklin 10).
Thus technology in the context of this paper concerns not only digital technology or physical tools but any set of practices, developed and planned applications of knowledge or systems of human/material/human interaction. Music notation for example is a technology, and so are specific techniques and approaches for singing or playing an instrument. An instrument is also a technology; an extension of the human body. Using the body in a specific and deliberate way to achieve a goal can also be considered a technology; as can the body itself while engaged in a particular method. To this end, Franklin goes on to discuss technology as a “multifaceted entity” which “includes activities as well as a body of knowledge, structures as well as the act of structuring” (Franklin 12).
Franklin's definition of technology splits technology into two main categories, work-related and control-related: “Work-related technologies make the actual practice easier. Take, for instance, the substitution of electric typewriters for mechanical ones; this is indeed a work-related technological improvement. Secondly there are control-related technologies, those developments that do not primarily address the process of work with the aim of making it easier, but try to increase control over the operation. Think of a word processor. A freestanding word processor is indeed work-related technology. But link those work processors into a work station – that is, into a system – and the technology becomes control-related. Now workers can be timed, assignments can be broken up, and the interaction between the operators can be monitored. Most modern technological changes involve control and thus new control-related applications have increased much faster than work-related ones” (Franklin 14).
She also defines the difference between (w)holistic and prescriptive technological development, outlining that the distinction lies in whether the means of control over the process are held by the individual artisan or by a collective, repetitive, fragmented process. A clear parallel can be drawn between this idea and the concepts this research presents itself in terms of crafting interdisciplinary performances from a (w)holistic perspective. In holistic technological processes, a single artisan (or, in the case of a performance team, a collective) is responsible for the entire process, entailing specialized but also general overarching process-based knowledge and aptitude for an array of different tasks which align to create a complete work. This differs from the traditional hierarchical composer-performer relationship, which bears a closer resemblance to prescriptive technologies wherein the division of labour is meticulously controlled and separated, with one worker performing one respective task, or set of tasks, at a high rate of repetition. Prescriptive systems can be credited with allowing for a higher level of “efficacy”, in terms of the conversion from time into a material product; it can thus be argued that the prescriptive model is more “efficient”, for producing a work at a high rate of speed, whereas a holistic model allows control over many aspects of creation to be more evenly distributed thus creating space for unexpected synthesis of knowledge between seemingly unrelated steps of a process (Franklin 15).
“It is the first kind of specialization, by product, that I call holistic technology, and it is important because it leaves the doer in total control of the process. The opposite is specialization by process; this I call prescriptive technology. It is based on a quite different division of labour. Here, the making or doing of something is broken down into clearly identifiable steps. Each step is carried out by a separate worker, or group of workers, who need to be familiar only with the skills of performing that one step. This is what is normally meant by 'division of labour'” (Franklin 15).
4.3.2 Technology and Embodiment
Embodiment explored from the perspective of this definition of technology can be considered in several ways. First, we can conceive of the body itself as technology; a tool which helps us achieve goals, move through space, manipulate objects. We can consider the various methods and theories of training for embodied performance technologies as well; a poetic example of this is Pauline Oliveros' concept of “Software for People”- practices that are employed in order to experience the world from a slightly altered or more finely tuned perspective, often in a group and often with the goal of creating a common sonic experience: “no matter how diverse the lifestyles or music, a common denominator might be found in the study of sensory and attention processes which enable humans to perceive, organize, interpret, and interact with the intelligence that is music. It is no longer sufficient to dwell solely on the music; the perceiver must be included” (Oliveros 180).
The technology of embodiment as discussed in the framework of this research and my case studies deals with shaping an approach to and conception of what constitutes a technological system – drawing heavily on handcraft and communal physical activity in juxtaposition with “futuristic” aesthetics to encourage the audience to reflect on this term and its implications from different perspectives.
4.3.3 The Technology of Spinning and Embodiment
In terms of spinning, the word technology can be applied in several senses. First; there are the physical tools of spinning – moving forward from the earliest hand or “drop” spindles. Later, mechanical spinning wheels were developed, with larger wheels driving the turning of the spindle first without foot pedals and later with, allowing for faster (and therefore, more “efficient”) production. The act of spinning itself is embodied knowledge applied through an embodied practice – we can understand theoretically how spinning fibre works, but until someone has tried it and has felt their own unique combination of tension and release working with the fibre and practiced this until the body becomes as much a part of the process as the spinning wheel, they cannot be said to “know” how to spin.
A further link between textiles and embodiment is found in Krista Tippett's book “Becoming Wise”, in an interview between the author and artist Ann Hamilton: the importance of textiles in relation to the body is highlighted with the realization that “textiles are the first house of the body, 'the body's first architecture'”. Hamilton, quoted here, links storytelling and bodily experience to textile craft: “How do we know things? We grow up or we’re educated in a world that ascribes a lot of value to those things that we can say or name. And, but, there are all these hundreds of ways that we know things through our skin, which is the largest organ of our body. So my first hand is that textile hand, and text and textiles are woven, always, experientially for me” (Tippett 182).
Community and culture are terms that are connected though not synonymous. Ursula Franklin outlines a connection between technology and culture thus:
“Looking at technology as practice, indeed as formalized practice, has some quite interesting consequences. One is that it links technology directly to culture, because culture, after all, is a set of socially accepted practices and values. Well laid down and agreed upon practices also define the practitioners as a group of people who have something in common because of the way they are doing things. Out of this notion of unifying practice springs the historical definition of 'us' and 'them.' I think it is important to realize that the experience of common practice is one of the ways in which people define themselves as groups and set themselves apart from others... A different way of doing something, a different tool for the same task, separates the outsider from the insider” (Franklin 12).
Looking at how community relates to culture, we must also consider the technology of community. The organization of communities is changing rapidly because our communication media is changing rapidly; communities no longer have to be limited to geographical location – people united by common practice or interest can be in touch digitally without ever meeting in person. I am interested in comparisons of online vs physical “communities” and in the possibilities (and realities) of these coexisting.
My research and my works deal with community because of deep connections to specific traditions and practices, for which there are already-existing “communities”. Some examples of this are knitters and spinners, folk dancers, or experimental instrument builders. My works seek also to create or synthesize community within the context of performance, by guiding a group of people through an experience together (this will be elaborated later in the case studies). When I speak about community in this research, I am referring to a group of people who share some common experience, practice, or set of beliefs. Some definitions of “community” art or “community-engaged practice” deal with art for and/or by people whose primary source of income is not normally art-making. Community-engaged practice in this definition could mean that; but what it means overall in the context of the present research is a practice that considers its community and its context and holds these at equal importance to the work being presented.
4.5 Interdisciplinary Work / Multidisciplinary / Intermediality
“Just before an airplane breaks the sound barrier, sound waves become visible on the wings of the plane. The sudden visibility of sound just as sound ends is an apt instance of that great pattern of being that reveals new and opposite forms just as the earlier forms reach their peak performance.” -Marshall McLuhan, Understanding Media
“I work in between the cracks, where the voice starts dancing, where the body starts singing, where theatre becomes cinema.” -Meredith Monk, 1984 Interview
Inside this section, I begin with definitions of media and discipline before moving forward into their larger applications.
In the opening phrase of Marshall McLuhan's groundbreaking work Understanding Media, he posits that “in a culture like ours, long accustomed to splitting and dividing all things as a means of control, it is sometimes a bit of a shock to be reminded that, in operational and practical fact, the medium is the message” (McLuhan 1).
So what can we consider a medium? In practical and simple terms, media concerns a material way of delivering or presenting content. But it can also concern the content itself: traditionally, we can think of categories like painting or sound as media. McLuhan takes this distinction further and presses the reader to look deeper into the smaller compartments of what constitutes a medium by exploring the phenomenon of the electric light: “The electric light is pure information. It is a medium without a message, as it were, unless it is used to spell out some verbal ad or name. This fact, characteristic of all media, means that the 'content' of any medium is always another medium. The content of writing is speech, just as the written word is the content of print, and print is the content of the telegraph. If it is asked, 'What is the content of speech?' it is necessary to say, 'It is an actual process of thought, which is in itself nonverbal.' An abstract painting represents direct manifestation of creative thought processes as they might appear in computer designs. What we are considering here, however, are the psychic and social consequences of the designs or patterns as they amplify or accelerate existing processes. For the 'message' of any medium or technology is the change of scale or pace or pattern that it introduces into human affairs” (McLuahn 12).
In terms of the present research and the case studies in the following section, the definition of media relates primarily to material form: wool, amplified sound, musical song, square dance, orally performed story. In terms of my exploration of the concept of performative embodiment, media can relate to using the body as a medium, and to the different ways the body can be used to carry and transmit information – movement, song, shaping of textile. A body onstage performing the act of spinning or knitting is a medium for the media of spinning or knitting a garment; the body draws the audience's attention to the fact that many of our textiles were (and are) shaped by human hands. The resulting garment is a medium for delivering warmth to the body that receives it. For a very basic definition, it can be helpful to think of media as ingredients as in a recipe – the tomato brings the tomato-y flavour; the pepper brings the spice; rice is the perfect medium for delivering a mixture of vegetable stock and chives.
According to McLuhan's definition, there are two basic types of media – hot and cool. “A hot medium is one that extends one single sense in 'high definition.' High definition is the state of being well filled with data. A photograph is, visually, 'high definition,' simply because very little visual information is provided. Telephone is a cool medium, or one of low definition, because the ear is given a meager amount of information. And speech is a cool medium of low definition, because so little is given and so much has to be filled in by the listener. On the other hand, hot media do not leave so much to be filled in or completed by the audience. Hot media are, therefore, low in participation, and cool media are high in participation or completion by the audience” (McLuhan 26).
Media hot and cool are important in relation to the concept of community, defined in the previous section and elaborated within the case studies that follow. My research considers the environments in which we make our work equally integral as the “inner materials” of the work itself. In terms of McLuhan's definition, the community or performance context for this work is as much the medium as the music. Therefore, consideration of whether the method of delivery of a work is “hot” or “cool” according to McLuhan's definition, thus asking oneself what is expected of/required from an audience or participants in a given situation, is essential. But context can also refer to discipline, when examining which larger form or container is most appropriate for presenting a work.
A discipline is a clearly defined field of practice or study, usually entailing a community of peers also working in this or a similar field. Discipline is a framework for analyzing, creating or practicing something in a specific way according to specific criteria. Usually this is according to historical separations, sometimes these separations are questionable, as there are the elements of positionality, education, conditioning and perception to consider when we begin to examine where one discipline stops and another begins. If media are the different ingredients inside of a recipe, the discipline is the recipe, or the cookbook, or the general style of cuisine concerned. Discipline is a larger vessel for the presentation and organization of one or more media, which are used either on their own as a display of their selfness (as in the example of ingredients in a recipe), or as expressive agents for carrying more media (a clarinet inside of a stage play playing a song in a specific style – the discipline is theatre, with a section of music inside of it, played on a specific instrument in a specific style). Some things are both media and discipline i.e. music played traditionally, within a traditionally musical context. In this case it is important to recognize in which way music is the discipline (providing the performance and practice context) and in which way it is the medium (expressing theoretical or emotional content through specifically-organized sound). In Jennifer Walshe's 2016 “compositional manifesto” The New Discipline, the author aims to define/describe an emerging style of working inside of contemporary “classical” compositional circles, focusing precisely on practices of embodiment and recognition of the performing body onstage in musical contexts, arguing that the visual/physical is as important and present as the sound in an audience's perception and reception of a work. (Walshe, web resource) This will be discussed in greater detail in the chapter on “significant others”.
There are many ways to describe work that is situated between clearly defined disciplines or media, and there are many shades of styles of work that don't fit easily into one category. The major distinction can be found in the type of interaction the different media and disciplines have inside of the working process.
Work that is situated between disciplines, work that exists at the meeting place of two or more distinct disciplines outside of one specific field, independent of the constraints or conventions of the respective fields. The goal of this work may be to find solutions that couldn't normally be found within the constraints of one discipline. Interdisciplinary approaches encourage cross-pollination of thought and technique across perceived borders. An interesting and materially relevant example of development resulting from interdisciplinary knowledge is the Jacquard Loom: Knowledge of perforated paper systems for programing the music on automatic organs was transplanted to the loom by Basile Bouchon, the son of an organ maker, in 1725, allowing for the mechanization of weaving of more complex patterns. His design was elaborated by his colleague Jean Baptiste Falcon in 1728. The Bouchon-Falcon loom was further improved by Jacques Vaucanson in 1745, and Joseph-Marie Jacquard integrated these developments with his own designs to create the Jacquard Loom, which operated on the same principle of guiding the hooks and needles of the loom through the use of perforated strings of cards. The punch-card system that was developed for this purpose over this period became the inspiration for early computer programming, which used paper punched with holes in order to communicate information to the computer systems (online resource, “Loom History Moving to Computer”).
Work that incorporates multiple disciplines, which may remain distinct in their presentation and may (or may not) retain their conventions, characteristics or normal behaviours. Several disciplines can exist at once, in one place and inside one project but they may not necessarily influence each other; each discipline remains neatly intact for the most part.
In intermedia practice, the materials of the work are drawn from different media. This practice varies from interdisciplinarity because it may be situated within one discipline (i.e. visual art or even as specific as sculpture for example), but there are multiple media working together to create the fabric of the work, and the goal is that the media blend to become a new form.
In multimedia, the materials of the work are also drawn from different media. Again, multimedia work may remain situated within one discipline. In multimedia work, it is not required that the multiple media interact in a way that causes them to blend; they may remain distinct and separate.